Abortion Vs Female Circumcision cond't

From: Arthur W Doe <Nahweah@msn.com>Date: Jun 4, 2008 10:28 AMSubject: RE: [OnLiberianMedium] Abortion Vs Female CircumcisionTo: onliberianmedium@yahoogroups.com
Frederick, my dear, Hon. Bernard's failure to provide his readers with facts about FGM does not only question his study, but also open another discussion about how some students failed in school because their papers are out of the subject matter. Anyone can conduct a study, but only a few of these studies are credible. Do you know why? This is because scholars put in more time and energy in their work to come out with a decent paper. I am not If Hon. Bernard study had benefitted the purpose of the study, he would have provided at least, one or two citations to substantiate his claim. Otherwise, he must choose to hide the ingredients of his study. Moreover, the other part of your discussion that dealt with Hon. Bernard's past was not necessary. This is because, like other well down to earth "old boys" did mingle with the country boys. Hon. Bernard, in his times did exactly what he could to pave the way for some of our native boys, including George Manneh Weah as well as some players and supporters of IE. In fact, Hon. Bernard contributed immensely to sponsor students in colleges and unversities across our nation state. Therefore, to put him in the category of those who did not see the contrymen worthwhile is wrong. So, why trouble yourself with Hon. Bernard's past, most especially, to discuss corrupt practices that he did not condone? Whether the past or the present, the fact of the matter is that both countrymen and Americo-Liberians did involve in corrupt practices. I can not list the corrupt practices by former government officials of the Grand Old True Whig Party, but recent statement by our President Ellen Johnson -Sirleaf said that "her government is three times corrupt" as any government. Therefore, let us stick to this discussion and encourage Hon. Bernard to stay. By the way, do you have a glass of gingerale? If not, I"ll pass one to you.
To: onliberianmedium@yahoogroups.comFrom: fgvarney@msn.comDate: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:11:58 +0000Subject: RE: [OnLiberianMedium] Abortion Vs Female Circumcision
Francis: I am not sure if I am getting this argument right. Archie seems to be pedantic in broaching a subject he has little or no understanding. He talked about writing a 30 page paper on FGM, yet he shares neither the thesis of his paper nor its findings, except for mentioning it in passing as though he was telling a love story to his fiancee. We all know how academics discuss issues that relate to meticulous research on trenchant issues that are often misunderstood. I am yet to know, as many on this listserv, Archie's research methodology as well as data collaboration, leading to a conclusion that FGM in our cultural context is anathema to female cultural civility. Francis, my brother, knowing the intricacies of our cultural nativity and its apparent frowns on any theatrical discussion of such issues, I am sorry to say that we know better than this gentleman. And, so, to open a discussion on such piercing cultural issues with a man whose knowledge of Liberia is circumscribed to Monrovia, may not be a wise thing to do. Can we engage him on the legendary corrupt practices handed down by his ancestors, in a civil manner, without opening old wounds? Can we talk about for instance, as you rightly said, about the predatory toll those "old boys" having on our youth, a topic Archie might find uncomfortable to talk about? One last thing: I was totally astounded by Brother Elijah's narrative that our elders opined that "they did not want the women to sexually behave like the men." I thought that a "compromised truth" coming from the brain power of the man who had no business saying something like that. I can only advise my brother not let his typing speed do the work of his mind. For I truly do not think that statement sprung from Elijah' staid mind. It was an equivocation and it must be shunned. Lastly: I hope Archie does not run away from this listserv because most of our "affluent older boys" fear being queried. They still live with a mindset that abhors questioning. They sometimes regard such discussion as something above their inherent pride. My hat is up for Bishop Warner, Mr. Flimister, and so many other elders on this listserv who share their daily thoughts with us. Frederick
To: OnLiberianMedium@yahoogroups.comFrom: fzazay@aol.comDate: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 02:10:32 -0400Subject: [OnLiberianMedium] Abortion Vs Female Circumcision
Mr. Benard,

Greetings and this is my final comment on this issue. I will therefore close with this comment: If you cannot prove how female whatever is horrible to Liberia, you must stop commenting on the issue. Because I believe for a man of your status in Liberia, you should be aware of many ramifications before making a statement on issues of national critical importance. This forum should be to provide information and not sentiments and sharing information about mere upbringing. While this may be great, the fact is, the practice of upbringing a child depends on several factors. I will not go on naming them.

My only advice is the energy spent on tearing down an age old cultural practice that will take time before having any importance, should instead be spent on improving our society. Factors such as corruption, nepotism and teenage sexual exploitation by big boys are issues in Liberia. I will suggest that we spend time on those, as much as we would like to look at other issues in our community.

Good night

Francis Zazay

As a leader of our country, by virut
In a message dated 6/3/2008 7:54:55 A.M. Central Daylight Time, bernard1@un.org writes:
Greetings!During my upbringing, I always heard the saying "spare the rod; spoil thechild." But I never hear anything about "spare the cut; spoil the child."Basically, I oppose FGM because I believe it to be child abuse andviolation of a child's basic human rights. This belief is grounded in theteachings and guidance of my mother's wit as she nurtured me throughout herlife. Therefore, am I not duty bound to join others seeking understandingof precisely what one would be up against in the quest to rid any littlegirl of the suffering and scourge of FGM? How much more would be enoughresearch to know child abuse when FGM speaks for itself?Perhaps to understand what some of the rancor and rage over banning FGM isabout; either now or by and by, I must continue to avail myself of therichness of our tribal diversity by engaging others in dialogue to gaininsights to the tribal cultural tradition context, in which proponents ofFGM see justification. So, I would excuse those who addressed my "learned"capacity - or the lack thereof (He who is perfect, let him cast the firststone. ... As if it were not possible to learn something new each day?) andask you to kindly provide me with actual insights to help me understand thejustification for FGM within the context of Liberian tribal culturaltraditions?Already, I have much information from many African authors and medical andlegal authorities. In the book, "The Hidden Face of Eve" by Nawal elSaadawi, she gives a personal account of circumcision in part 1, titled"the mutilated half." Rather than it being written from a western point ofview, it is written by a woman in the Arab world, with a first handaccount. As is also with novels of Flora Nwapa, Ngugi Wa Thiongo. A fewother notable publications include Jomo Kenyatta's "Facing Mt. Kenya,"Chapter 6: "Initiation of Boys and Girls." And by Thiam, Awa. "Speak Out,Black Sisters: Feminism and Oppression in Black Africa;" and Toubia,Nahid. "Female Genital Mutilation: A Call for Global Action.Any additional insights on FGM, from the prospective of Liberian tribalcultural traditions, would add more to my overall understanding. But,please hear me clearly: my understanding of FGM within the context ofLiberian cultural tradition would be simply to aid in the quest to saveanother child from such abuse. From a cultural tradition perspective, beinga so-called "maggin boy from Rock Town" who is too "quee" to be called"congua," I am thankful that neither my sisters nor my two daughter wereexposed to the trauma of FGM.Best regards,Archie B.tolob@comcast.net Sent by: To: OnLiberianMedium@yahoogroups.com OnLiberianMedium@yaho cc: (bcc: Archie Bernard/ICTR/UNO) ogroups.com Subject: Re: [OnLiberianMedium] Abortion Vs Female Circumcision 03/06/2008 12:18 PM Please respond to OnLiberianMedium In reading Archie Bernard's article on the subject "female circumcision" Iwas shocked to note that a learned lawyer from the Louise Arthur Grimesschool of Law would attempt to write on a subject that he knows little ornothing about. Consular Bernard, in your research on the subject inquestion, did you research to find out how many cultures around the worldpractice "female circumcision or female genital mutilation"? Is thepractice only confined to African societies? Are you telling us that youdid a 30 research paper based on half truths from your sisters' friends?Even though some of us frown on the practice solely out of health concerns,it is important to conduct a scientific research on the subject based onfacts before drawing any conclusions. Did you try to find why the MidEasterners practice "female Circumcision", or did you think that it is onlyAfrican societies that perform the rite? Be careful what you writeconsular. Thanks to Tuon and Jake Doe for your analysis on the subject.Tolo Bonah Corfah-------------- Original message --------------From: Archie Bernard <bernard1@un.org>Wow! Whatever it is that you are trying to say here, my response isthat:you are most welcome.Cheers!Archie B.Jacob Doe<josiboedoe@yahoo.com To: OnLiberianMedium@yahoogroups.com> cc: (bcc: Archie Bernard/ICTR/UNO)Sent by: Subject: Re: [OnLiberianMedium] Abortion Vs FemaleCircumcisionOnLiberianMedium@yahoogroups.com02/06/2008 10:00 PMPlease respond toOnLiberianMediumCompatriot Tuon/Compatriot BernardCompatriot Tuon, Kindly accept my hearty compliments forfundamentallydebunking Archie Bernard´s promotion of his slavemasters´ culturebeing themetaculture for makind. Accordingly, may I please interject a pointofcorrection here: that this son of a Liberian immigrant IS NOT"re-enforcingthe fact but rather, RE-ENFORCING THE MYTH that many Afr icantraditions areconsidered barbaric and should be eradicated without any objectivestudy"as contained in your lead sentence compatriot Tuon.As for you compatriot Bernard, your chronic limitations on thesubjectmatter would have been unknown had you, instead of basing yourfindings onyour sisters´ gossips, look up the shelves for the Anthropology ofLaw, andthen at your current age you would have known that while you may dowellbeing a "successful" transmission belt for your slavemasters´commercialinterests, you do not have the sophestication to serve as atransmissionbelt to relegate, insult, or destroy any feature of the culture ofMamaAfrica!By the way, your reasearch conclusion reached from your sister´sgossipsand this your so called thirty page brief; was it from a positivists,interpretivist, idealist, externalist, or an internalist standpoint?Whileyou are at that I like to warn you via the following indices andsignals:Compatriot. Bernard, instead of lackadaisically promoting the myththat anytradition or culture from Mama Africa that is not approved by yourslavemasters is bad, you should be ejaculating knowledge during theseintellectual intercourses that will help them (your slavemasters) indesisting from homosexuality within the officialdom of the Church!Thisculture of theirs is dangerous and sewagingly shameful mostespecially soon the pulpit, and its Bishopric! Mr. Bernard would this die out?Thanks exceedingly,Jake DoeNimely-Sie Tuon <tuonagain@yahoo.com> wrote:Mr. Bernard's below intervention regarding female circumcision, knownas "Female Genital Mutilation" by its opponents, has revealednothing new, but simply re-enforcing the fact that many Africantraditions are considered barbaric and should be eradicated withoutany objective study of the matter. W hat we have here, as Mr. Bernardpointed out, is that every action taken so far regarding femalecircumcision, like many other African tribal practices, is aimed ateradicating not improving on it, or find out what impact this andmany others have had on the population that are involved in thesepractices for the past centuries. There has been no indepth study ofthis matter to see its pros and cons. This practice has survived manycenturies, and there is no proof that children born from women whounderwent this procedure are different from those born to the womenwho didn't.Mr. Bernard, like many others, who have attempted to discussed this,usually exposed their own lack of direct knowledge of this procedure.Mr. Bernard, as a Liberian law maker who had attempted to ban thisprocedure relied only on the writings of those that are against this,eventhough, Mr. Bernard was in the position to have visited thecenters, or native schoo ls, where this procedure is conducted butchose not to, and continues to call for its outright ban.The Liberian society, like many other African societies, aresaturated with many western ideas that have negatively impacted thepeople, but all we hear are excuses to improve on ugly western ideasand practices, not calling for them to be banned.While the west is telling us to ban female circumcision, the westrefused to ban abortion, once a very crude procedure, but insteadthey are improving on making the abortion procedure safe. An outrightban on abortion has fallen on deaf ears in which actual human rightsviolation do occurred. Right now in the abortion procedure, themethod of killing an unborn child is being improve, so why the femalecircumcision procedure can not be improved on medically?The ongoing onslaught of our tribal practices by those callingthemselves government officials, with total disregard to our people'ssensitivity, are setting the stage for a cultural revolt acrossLiberia. These unwarranted attacks on Liberia's trbal institutionshave nothing to do with nation building, but rather to perpetuate thesubornation of African natives to the rest of the world. EveryAfrican, or Liberian tribal way of life must be given the opportunityto be improved on like we do with western ideas, and allow the peopleinvolved to make informed decision as whether they want continue themor not.Archie Bernard <bernard1@un.org> wrote:Good morning to All,In law school I learned that female circumcision is a violationof herbasic human rights. Before then, I would hear of the practicebeing spokenabout in hush tones - as if it were taboo. Often, I would hearmy eightsisters wispering about some of the horrors recounted by theirgirlfriendswho were victims of the practice in the name of cultural riteof passage.During the constitutional drafting exercise, I gained moreinsight into thecomplex and nettlesome nature of this practice during ratherheated debatesabout what constitutes "positive Liberian culture." Later on,in theSenate, an attempt by us "young guns" to introduce a billbanning thepractice in Liberia was blocked by the presiding officer, withwarningsthat we would risk being JR-ed were we to persist. Onehonorable gentlemaneven accused me of not being qualified to understand thecultural ortraditional significance of this practice, because "my fatherhad notribe;" being the son of an immigrant to Liberia. So, to ensuresupport onother issues, we gave up that battle.Shortly thereafter, in my African Law class at the LouiseArthur GrimesSchool of Law, I took it as the subject of the required 30-pagebrief on atopic of African Law. The insights gained from readings andinterviews onthis topic were an eye opener - to say the least. It remindedme of mystudies of trial by ordeal, slavery, cannibalism and apatheid.And howthose too found justifications in religious zealotry , culturaltraditionsand social dogma. But, the poignant impact of this practice wassummed upin one look at a picture showing the utter shock and hurt inthe eyes of alittle girl, from something so life changing (yet avoidable)having beendone to her body, without her consent. Worse still, the pictureshowedthis been done to her body at the urging of her family. Whatmere wordswould ever be sufficient to justify such suffering on herinnocence? Likeother, I too wonder what manner of man would wish suchsufferring upon hisdaughter in the name of cultural tradition?Given the emotive nature spured by any talk of banning thispractice, apublic debate would provide the chance for better c ulturalunderstandingsand perhaps, eventually, some concensus on how we as a peoplewould addressthis intractable cultural practice. Moreover, without publicdebate, thisissue has the potential risk of being highjacked by those whowould preachtribalism disguised as nationalism. Yet, regardless of all thetalking,cutting-ups and carrying-ons (ironically being done mostly bymen), clearlythis is one of those "when-chicken-is-white, it-is-white"issues. And whileit may linger long; die it must. This practice is a voilationof a littlegirl's inner child, with profound impact on her life.Best regards,Archie B.