From: CELIA BROWN <celiabrown@msn.com>Date: Jun 6, 2008 9:39 PMSubject: RE: [OnLiberianMedium] Abortion Vs Female CircumcisionTo: onliberianmedium@yahoogroups.com
Ngee:
MESSAGE FROM PRESIDENT SIRLEAF TO HARVARD GRADUATES
"For all of you hoping to change the world, to carry back to your professional environment new concepts of management, new models of development, new impetus for leadership whether in your local town, your county or province, your country, your NGO, or your civic organization. Be prepared for the challenge which comes from the resistance to change, from the fear of the unknown and untried," President Johnson-Sirleaf observed.
To: onliberianmedium@yahoogroups.com; OLM_Adm04@yahoogroups.comFrom: ngg06@yahoo.comDate: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:45:54 -0700
Subject: Re: [OnLiberianMedium] Abortion Vs Female Circumcision
Ms. Brown,
I am not quite sure if you truly loved to amuse yourself, or you are simple inclined to bring much confusion to yourself about Liberian traditional cultural practices? For instance, I think only a person unfamiliar with Liberian history like yourself might write in a public forum such as this listerv that "African chiefs" sold Mr. Bernard's fore-parents into slavery, when all history texts on Liberian showed that the people known today as Native Liberians welcomed the former freed slaves, those known today as Americo-Liberians, back to Africa. And today, it is only misinformed persons like yourself who will harbor the idea that the person accused must prove his innocence rather than the accuser proving that the accused is guilty. Hence, in your misinformed mind, you write with much audacity:
"Everyone on this list serve who has been pro ban has provided reason. You have not even shown one article. you of all person who always does research, the king for research who even took the time to do research on my ancestors, have not come up with one single article in which FGM is seen as something beneficial for the female. We all know why you are promoting this FGM. We all know and we will leave it at that. FGM is proposed to be ban in Liberia. Studies and dialogues have already been conducted on this subject. It will be banned. You are the one who must go prove your case why you think it should be promoted!!!"
Well, Ms. Brown, the traditional practice of Liberia is female circumcision and not "female genital mutiliation," so you and I are not really discussing the same issue here. And granted that we both spoke about female circumcision within the Liberian cultural context, the only reference that will be necessary to the discussion will be a literature on the practice of female circumcision in Libeira and not female circumcision as practiced in other countries, as no two cultures practice the same way. But more important, I have no intention to provide a literature to satisfy your curoisity, as the practice of female circumcision is not subject to scrutiny simply because you and others think it does wet your western appetite. In other words, Ms. Brown, the articles you and Mr. Jallah and others have produced are irrelevant to the practice of female circumcision in Liberia, and those of us who advocate the right of the adherents of female circumcision to continue their way of life do not owe you and others an explanation as to why we think the people have the right to their practice. Consequently, no articles are necessary from our end, as the burden of proof is on you to establish why you think female circumcision should be banned.
Again, and as I informed Mr. Jallah earlier, I do not dignify undignifying things, so you can please yourself and beat your chest in whatever jubiliations you find in your specualtions about female circumcision. However, until you and others can provide concrete evidence that female circumcision is detrimental to Liberian society, you can advocate for a "ban" all you want but such a ban will not materialize in the sense that the people will not honor it if it came into being in the same way the people did not honor the sassywood ban of 1956 by the Liberian Surpeme Court, and recently by the Sirleaf government. A people's way of life cannot be changed on the fly, so you can amuse yourself all you want.
Nat Galarea Gbessagee
6/6/08
----- Original Message ----From: CELIA BROWN <celiabrown@msn.com>To: onliberianmedium@yahoogroups.comSent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 8:22:32 PMSubject: RE: [OnLiberianMedium] Abortion Vs Female Circumcision
Gbesagee: Now, this is what I call tautology!!! Everyone else who is against FGM has provided documentations and written data, medically, socially, emmotionally to prove why FGM should be abolished. You and your compatriots have not given any tangible reason why it should be continued. You have not given any reason at all why FGM should continue. Everyone on this list serve who has been pro ban has provided reason. You have not even shown one article. you of all person who always does research, the king for research who even took the time to do research on my ancestors, have not come up with one single article in which FGM is seen as something beneficial for the female. We all know why you are promoting this FGM. We all know and we will leave it at that. FGM is proposed to be ban in Liberia. Studies and dialogues have already been conducted on this subject. It will be banned. You are the one who must go prove your case why you think it should be promoted!!! I am high 5ing and toasting to all the young girls in Liberia whom are set to be free from this inhumane treatment!!! ! As for you, I have no use for you!!! You are all tautology!!! ! You and your compatriots should use your political verbiage and rant on and on and on and on about the western world yet sit in the western world, keep your daughters secure, yet wish evil against someone elses innocent daughter. As Mr. Fahnbulleh always says, GOD FORBID!!! Goodnight Nat I have no used for your tautology!!! Celia Cuffy-Brown (Mrs.)
To: OnLiberianMedium@ yahoogroups. comFrom: ngg06@yahoo. comDate: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:15:06 -0700Subject: Re: [OnLiberianMedium] Abortion Vs Female Circumcision
Mr. Jallah,
I am sorry, but these are the kinds of discussions that I consider an awful waste of my time. Just read your first paragraph, and you will come across words like "paranoia," "condescending, " "conspiracy, " "deter" and so forth, which have no bearing on the subject at hand. I have stated here repeatedly that I don't care what other people do in their homelands and what other people write about practices in their homelands because if you are going to ban a cultural practice in Liberia, then the burden is on you to establish how that cultural practice affects Liberians rather than Somalians and others.
In other words, Mr. Jallah, I have asked you, Ms. Brown, Mr. Bernard and others to establish the legal, cultural, ethical, and socioeconomic bases for seeking to ban female circumcision in Liberia within the context of Liberian society, given the legal separations of customary and anglo-saxon law. So far, posting articles about female circumcision in other countries has got nothing to do with Liberia, since you know fully well that no two societies practice their cultures the same way. Hence, my request to you for proof that female circumcision is bad is not a sign that I am an "authority" on female circumcision, since it is obvious in any setting where a ban is contemplated clear justifications on concrete evidence must be provided before any service can be discontiued, let alone an entire cultural practice, which is the way of life of a people, can be banned.
As to the rest of your speculations and conjectures, Mr. Jallah, they are not worth dignifying with a comment from me.
Nat Galarea Gbessagee
6/5/08
----- Original Message ----From: jal mar
Nat now your writing suggest some paranoia as I do not understand why you would suggest that Mrs Brown and I are high fiving as we are engaged in some conspiracy against you.You and Mrs Brown many times have engaged in heated battles, many of which I have stood on the sidelines and observed.To diminish my view in that condescending matter because you seem to hold that you are an authority on a matter because you are a Native Liberian does not deter me from having an informed decision.The posted literature on this subject was intended for you and Jacob Doe's benefit.I would suppose that you would assume that the female model from Somalia is not an authority on FGM too right? I urge you to read her story.I find her to be a better source of information than you using your logic that she is a female so that would make her an authority on the subject.After all you are a man and have no authority to speak on the workings of the sande society. How limiting would that be if for instance only Germans could speak as authorities on German subjects, or Liberians who are living in Liberia are the only ones that could discuss the Ellen Johnson Sirleaf government? In my opinion that would severely limit your mission since 2002 more especially since you do not live in Liberia and have no right to speak against the Ellen Johnson Sirleaf government? Is that logical? No. For me I find it limiting so let me put it in perspective. If a culture is out there and for instance say the Father believes that sleeping with his daughter is a rite of passage, or like the Chinese bind the woman's foot, or you beat you wife. I will speak up against it.I know Jacob Doe is advocating the Cultural relativism theory where it states right and wrong can only be judged by a specific society, well I do not subscribe to that theory. John Dewey would be proud of Jacob Doe, I think you know Jake he is a Westerner but I won't get into your rants and then using a westerner's point of view..As for me I believe that murder, genocide, child abuse, spousal abuse, rape are cross cultural phenomeons so when I see evidence of such I will speak out against it, and I believe Mr Bernard and Celia Brown will too.I believe that is how every culture improves that is why slavery is no longer existent in the United States today and why there will come a day in Liberia where young girls will not be given away in marriage or have a procedure done to them that they might not want. Maybe even if they wanted it done it would be done in a medically safe environment instead of your local barber.This is my mission declared in 2008 to protect against intellectual misrepresentations and rhetoric when it comes to women and children's rights.
----- Original Message ----From: NGee
Ms. Brown,
Self-glorification is sometimes good for individual self-esteem in the face of daunting challenges, so I have no problem with you amusing yourself that you of all persons on this listserv, Ms. Brown, "brought him [Gbessagee] down to his knees quite recently." I am very happy for you, Ms. Brown, for dreaming so high. However, read my writings from 2002 until now and you will realize that you are greatly mistaken in your view about how I tackle issues on this listserv and elsewhere. And I must inform you that I have no inclinations to dignify your rambling about President Doe and "gravy train." I think many persons before you have taken that position as a way to deviate from the issue at hand, so I am sorry, but I won't let you escape from the discussion about female circumcision and your misinformed notion that "African chiefs" sold Mr. Bernard's fore-parents into slavery. I think it is such carelessness on your part regarding Liberian history that makes you to think that a people's way of life can be changed on the fly to satisfy either your curoisity or misguarded moral outrage.
As to Mr. Jallah, I don't think he understands the issue at hand by his suggestion that Mr. Bernard's Americo-Liberian background is not a factor in Mr. Bernard's desire to ban female circumcision in Liberia. First, Mr. Jallah, female circumcision is a Native Liberian cultural practice and not an Americo-Liberian cultural practice, so Mr. Bernard lacks any authority whatsoever to speak to the benefits and lack thereof of female circumcision. Second, by an outsider like Mr. Bernard seeking to ban the cultural practice of Native-Liberians without the benefit of input by Native Liberians who are custodians of Native Liberian culture, Mr. Bernard effectively introduced the issue of cultural difference with respect to which cultural practices are acceptable to Liberian society and which are not. So in essence, Mr. Jallah, it was Mr. Bernard who introduced the subject of Americo-Liberian culture vs Native Liberian culture by seeking to ban a practice outside his own Americo-Liberian culture.
But, again, Mr. Jallah, I do not dignify any statements from anyone who holds an opposing point of view on an issue but at the same time anoints himself as a judge of the very issue. In other words, Mr. Jallah, where you see "inconsistent pattern" I see "concrete connections, " so I have no inclinations to dignify misplaced judgments on an issue as important as female circumcision, a core value of Native Liberian culture.
I should, however, let you know that I delight in the fact that you and Ms. Brown can begin to "high five" yourselves for a job well done, no matter how misinformed and miseducated you present yourselves on the issue of female circumcision in Liberia. After all, the only people who can determine that something is "child abuse" within a culture are the adherents of that culture and no one else, so western standards of child abuse are immaterial to the practice of female circumcision in Liberian traditional culture. Even Mr. Bernard as a legislator lacks the qualification to ban female circumcision, so it is far-fetched that you and Ms. Brown think female circumcision can be subjected to western cultural values and jurisprudence. But good luck in your misinformed jubilations.
Nat Galarea Gbessagee6/5/08
----- Original Message ----From: CELIA BROWN
Jallah,Gbesagee is so fake and inconsistent. His arguments are only consistent against people he particularly don't care about or shall I say dislike. That is, people who make compelling cases on a particular subject, better than he does. He must win at all cost or belittle a person. He speaks so fondly of President Samuel K. Doe's government, has never had anything negative to say of the Doe regime yet he speaks so negatively of the Sirleaf Government. Since I brought him down to his knees quite recently, he begins to write kindly of the Sirleaf Government once in a while. Even when he does write, you see the insincerity in his writing. Now you all will began to believe me that he hates any government that suceeded Doe because his gravy train has been cut off!!! He was not and has not been invited to get on this train. As for the Sirleaf government, there is no gravy. Mrs. Sirleaf is intolerant of gravy seekers!!! Well, well, well!!!Gbesagee, the western world has just enabled the son of an African Immigrant to make history. I like the western world. In the western world, women keep their clitoris and the rights of those whom can not defend themselves are protected. You go ahead and promote your culture that violates the rights of women and children, to prove that you are the mannnnnn!!! Sorry pal!!! The world has no time for political lunatics. You happen to be one the bitter people that obama is speaking about who hold on culture and colts.Like your pal arthur, I am not going to drink ginger ale. I am going to pop a bottle of champaign!!! I must toast to the western world where there are endless possibilities of life!!!Celia Cuffy-Brown
To: OnLiberianMedium@ yahoogroups. comFrom: jallah65@yahoo. comDate: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:46:39 -0700Subject: Re: [OnLiberianMedium] Abortion Vs Female Circumcision
Nat. I detect an inconsistent pattern here and it would be unfair fo me to not point it out.First whether Mr Benard is an Americo Liberian has nothing to do with topic of female circumcision. Second, it is interesting that you would admonish Celia for deviating from the subject, when in fact it is Messers Varney, Zazzay, Doe who were the original culprits in diverting this topic into a Native Liberian vs Americo Liberian.As you can see by some of the information I have posted here the female circumcision did not originate here on the Liberian medium. It has in fact been debated for decades. Also there are various views in which this discussion is treated , medical, cultural and legal, and one of Mr Bernard's concerns was the violation of childrens rights.I think you can see by where Mr Bernard now works why that might be an issue of great concern for him. Furthermore you are not a Doctor, Lawyer or Politician but that doesn't stop you from commenting on issues so why should Mr Bernard not have an opinion like you usually have.
----- Original Message ----From: NGee
Ms. Brown,
The last time I read your writing on this listserv regarding Mr. Bernard's view on female circumcision, you wrote that Native Liberians had no business questioning Mr. Bernard on his misinformed rendering of the efficicy of female circumcision to Native Liberian culture, and the impact of that culture on Liberian society, unless the Natives had no intention but to gang on Mr. Bernard. Of course, you wrote specifically, Ms. Brown: "Before your get to form your native comradery, your don't forget that Mr. Bernard did not become an Americo-Liberian by choice. A Native African Chief sold his people into slavery for Gin and Tobacco. Let us stick to the subject. No slave master business here!! " It is quick amusing Ms. Brown that in the very passage that you shouted "let us stick to the subject," used introduced the subject of slavery which has got nothing to do with female circumcision. But this is the typical Ms. Brown who usually introduces a subject outside the subject at hand, since her singular belief is that she has monopoly over the issue of "right and wrong" or "good and bad" in Liberian society.
Nonetheless, Ms. Brown, in this single passage quoted above from your post, you not only bought into the illusion on the part of Mr. Bernard as regards what he supposed are the benefits and benalities of female circumcision, but also that somehow Mr. Bernard's identity as an Americo-Liberian was not crafted by his foreparents, the ex-American slaves, but by some divine misdirection on the part of a "Native African Chief" selling Mr. Bernard's ancestors into "slavery for Gin and Tobacco." Howbeit to say that such a statement from a supposed educated Liberian like yourself is the hallmark of the kind of miseducation among Liberians about Liberian and African history that has resulted in so much turmoil in Liberian life and identity today. For it is difficult that a discussion about female circumcision will deviate into a discussion about slavery, especially where one lacks complete knowledge of the Transatlantic slave trade that took many Africans from their homeland to slave camps in Europe and America. And it seems that Ms. Brown is wholly unaware that the phrase "African chiefs" is not the same as "Liberian chiefs," so the notion of who sold whom shouldn't have any basis in a discussion about female circumcision in Liberia, a cultural practice in Liberia, but also in other parts of Africa, Asia, the Middle East, and Europe. And I do not wish to dignify Ms. Brown's myth about Mr. Bernard's foreparents being sold into slavery, when Ms. Brown has established earlier that she doesn't even know the origin of her own ancestors, let alone the fact that any discussion about slavery that excludes the slave-masters is greatly misinformed.
However, I should like to point out the irony in Ms. Brown's current post regarding Mr. Bernard. She wrote: "Senator Bernard has been an exemplified citizen of Liberia. He has never displayed uppity attitude with his fellow Liberians as you can even attest to on this listserve. Even in the mist of this discussion, in which he is being attacked instead of the issue, he remains steadfast in being true to himself, not patronizing the hate characterizing of his African-Western origin!" I believe this passage speaks highly of the confusion that Ms. Brown brings to discusssion of the subject of female circumcision. First, Mr. Bernard is not doing Native Liberians a favor by participating in this discussion about female circumcision, so I care less as to whether or not Mr. Bernard displays "uppity attitude" and "remains steadfast in being true to himself," let alone if he consigned himself to "not patronizing the hate characterizing of his African-western origin!" To me, it is shameful that the very Ms. Brown who introduced slavery into the discussion will have the audacity to cast scrutiny of Mr. Bernard's rendering on female circumcision as an attack on him or a matter of "hate" about his origin.
Second, with all due respect to Mr. Bernard, he is the least qualified person to do a research on female circumcision as he is more a politician buried in the cultural warfare between Native Liberian vs Americo-Liberian since the time of Liberian independence in 1847, so he had a hypothesis to discredit the practice of female circumcision as starting point for his research rather than to objectively look at the practice and its relevance and contribution to the social and cultural structures are uniquely Native Liberians. In other words, Mr. Bernard is not qualified to tell the story of Native Liberians in the voice of Native Liberian with a goal of projecting a positive image of Native Liberian cultural practices as a matter of bringing about mutual respect and understanding of the culture as regards all segments of Liberian society. And Mr. Bernard's lack of qualification as a voice on Native Liberian issues boils down to the fact that Mr. Bernard is not only an Americo-Liberian aligned fully to the minority within the Americo-Liberian class that perpetuated inequality in all dimensions in LIberia, but also that Mr. Bernard attempted to misuse his power as a legislator to impose his view on the Liberian people by seeking to ban female circumcision withou public hearings and consultations with the Native Liberians whose way of life includes female circumcision.
Third, as Mr. Varney, Mr. Zazay, and others have already indicated, Mr. Bernard provides no cultural, intellectual, and historical contexts for his research of female circumcision, and Mr. Bernard failed to state the demographics of his research, even if the research is qualitative or quantative. And in the academic world, Mr. Bernard must provide the research sequence he used--one or two of the various research methodologies grouped under qualitative or quality research methods--and provide a theoretical framework for his findings and conclusions. So far, Mr. Bernard has failed to establish a research methodology and a theoretical framework for his research findings. Consequently, Mr. Bernard lacks any credibility regarding female circumcision as his research cannot be established within the confines of academia, and he is socially and culturally detached from the practice of female circumcision. Perhaps, like others have said, Mr. Bernard might have done good to himself and the Liberian people if he had started with something he grew up in--rumors about ritualistic killings in the Liberian Masonic Craft and UBF; the rationale of a minority group ruling a majority group without not intention to share power; the rationale that the minority enjoyed all leadership posts in the government; corruption and lack of justice in Liberia; the unfair distribution of wealth, and so forth and so on.
You see, Ms. Brown, these are the real academic issues that Mr. Bernard should have concerned himself with as a law student rather than the traditional practice of female circumcision. And these are the reasons why Mr. Bernard might not be remotely qualified to give an opinion on the efficacy of female circumcision on the growth and development of the various ethnic groups of Liberia that practiced female circumcision. In other words, without equality and a fair justice system in Liberia, it is highly unlikely that Mr. Bernard can serve any useful purpose in banning a traditional practice of a huge segment of Liberian society, whose very practices are protected by the constitution of Liberia. Hence, no one wants to "attack" Mr. Bernard for his lack of knowledge and lack of academic credential and credibility in matter far removed from his area of study--law.
Nat Galarea Gbessagee
6/4/08
----- Original Message ----From: CELIA BROWN
Arthur and Senator Bernard:Thank you Arthur for your clarity of the character of Senator Barnard, a hero in paving the way for young men in soccer. He was one of those few people who did not see young football players as "GBANA PEKIN" otherwise "Grona Boys". He encouraged young soccer fans to reach beyond the status quo. As a matter of fact, Mr. Bernard did provide proof of some facts of FGM. He stated that he did some work with operation smile . He also wrote a thesis on the subject. People who do thesis, gather relevant information about the subject and compile a document and defend the document. It is left with you to do your research to find out if his statement is credible.I lived in Monrovia at the time he spoke about and can verify that yes, indeed, he was involved with operation smile and many other charitable organizations that would enhance the quality of life for Liberians. Senator Bernard has been an exemplified citizen of Liberia. He has never displayed uppity attitude with his fellow Liberians as you can even attest to on this listserve. Even in the mist of this discussion, in which he is being attacked instead of the issue, he remains steadfast in being true to himself, not patronizing the hate characterizing of his African-Western origin! I know that his quest to be a part of this discussion is not to show how educated he is. His quest is to be a voice to a process to eliminate an inhumane treatment of defenseless young women who are underage and can not help themselves. In life, we who can be heard, must be the voice of those whom do not have the power to have their voices heard. These are some of the purposes of our lives. Gbana Pekins were Grona Boys!!! Some body who had a voice and the power, made them International Soccer Stars!!! Senator Bernard is one of those people. I personally will take this opportunity to thank Mr. Bernard for Continuing to be the voice of the voiceless. Mr. Bernard, you have never allowed any negative criticism discouraged you from doing what you do best; being a voice that enhances the quality of life for your fellow voiceless, Liberian. You have been the voice for the stigmatized. You have been the voice for those whom have been placed in a caste category of a society that should not even have a caste system. Caste as in those whom have been born into a culture that would not grow in the trend of time. As you are given a voice, you must continue to be the voice that you are in the cause of those whom can not speak for themselves. Some of us are obliged to follow some of those wonderful examples set by people like you. May God continue to bless you and your family!!! Just to remind you, you don't have to thank me because, you deserve to be told this at this time!!!Celia Cuffy-Brown (Mrs.)
To: onliberianmedium@ yahoogroups. comFrom: Nahweah@msn. comDate: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:28:41 +0000Subject: RE: [OnLiberianMedium] Abortion Vs Female Circumcision
Frederick, my dear, Hon. Bernard's failure to provide his readers with facts about FGM does not only question his study, but also open another discussion about how some students failed in school because their papers are out of the subject matter. Anyone can conduct a study, but only a few of these studies are credible. Do you know why? This is because scholars put in more time and energy in their work to come out with a decent paper. I am not If Hon. Bernard study had benefitted the purpose of the study, he would have provided at least, one or two citations to substantiate his claim. Otherwise, he must choose to hide the ingredients of his study. Moreover, the other part of your discussion that dealt with Hon. Bernard's past was not necessary. This is because, like other well down to earth "old boys" did mingle with the country boys. Hon. Bernard, in his times did exactly what he could to pave the way for some of our native boys, including George Manneh Weah as well as some players and supporters of IE. In fact, Hon. Bernard contributed immensely to sponsor students in colleges and unversities across our nation state. Therefore, to put him in the category of those who did not see the contrymen worthwhile is wrong. So, why trouble yourself with Hon. Bernard's past, most especially, to discuss corrupt practices that he did not condone? Whether the past or the present, the fact of the matter is that both countrymen and Americo-Liberians did involve in corrupt practices. I can not list the corrupt practices by former government officials of the Grand Old True Whig Party, but recent statement by our President Ellen Johnson -Sirleaf said that "her government is three times corrupt" as any government. Therefore, let us stick to this discussion and encourage Hon. Bernard to stay. By the way, do you have a glass of gingerale? If not, I"ll pass one to you.
To: onliberianmedium@ yahoogroups. comFrom: fgvarney@msn. comDate: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:11:58 +0000Subject: RE: [OnLiberianMedium] Abortion Vs Female Circumcision
Francis: I am not sure if I am getting this argument right. Archie seems to be pedantic in broaching a subject he has little or no understanding. He talked about writing a 30 page paper on FGM, yet he shares neither the thesis of his paper nor its findings, except for mentioning it in passing as though he was telling a love story to his fiancee. We all know how academics discuss issues that relate to meticulous research on trenchant issues that are often misunderstood. I am yet to know, as many on this listserv, Archie's research methodology as well as data collaboration, leading to a conclusion that FGM in our cultural context is anathema to female cultural civility. Francis, my brother, knowing the intricacies of our cultural nativity and its apparent frowns on any theatrical discussion of such issues, I am sorry to say that we know better than this gentleman. And, so, to open a discussion on such piercing cultural issues with a man whose knowledge of Liberia is circumscribed to Monrovia, may not be a wise thing to do. Can we engage him on the legendary corrupt practices handed down by his ancestors, in a civil manner, without opening old wounds? Can we talk about for instance, as you rightly said, about the predatory toll those "old boys" having on our youth, a topic Archie might find uncomfortable to talk about? One last thing: I was totally astounded by Brother Elijah's narrative that our elders opined that "they did not want the women to sexually behave like the men." I thought that a "compromised truth" coming from the brain power of the man who had no business saying something like that. I can only advise my brother not let his typing speed do the work of his mind. For I truly do not think that statement sprung from Elijah' staid mind. It was an equivocation and it must be shunned. Lastly: I hope Archie does not run away from this listserv because most of our "affluent older boys" fear being queried. They still live with a mindset that abhors questioning. They sometimes regard such discussion as something above their inherent pride. My hat is up for Bishop Warner, Mr. Flimister, and so many other elders on this listserv who share their daily thoughts with us. Frederick
To: OnLiberianMedium@ yahoogroups. comFrom: fzazay@aol.comDate: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 02:10:32 -0400Subject: [OnLiberianMedium] Abortion Vs Female Circumcision
Mr. Benard,
Greetings and this is my final comment on this issue. I will therefore close with this comment: If you cannot prove how female whatever is horrible to Liberia, you must stop commenting on the issue. Because I believe for a man of your status in Liberia, you should be aware of many ramifications before making a statement on issues of national critical importance. This forum should be to provide information and not sentiments and sharing information about mere upbringing. While this may be great, the fact is, the practice of upbringing a child depends on several factors. I will not go on naming them.
My only advice is the energy spent on tearing down an age old cultural practice that will take time before having any importance, should instead be spent on improving our society. Factors such as corruption, nepotism and teenage sexual exploitation by big boys are issues in Liberia. I will suggest that we spend time on those, as much as we would like to look at other issues in our community.
Good night
Francis Zazay
As a leader of our country, by virut
In a message dated 6/3/2008 7:54:55 A.M. Central Daylight Time, bernard1@un. org writes:Greetings!During my upbringing, I always heard the saying "spare the rod; spoil thechild." But I never hear anything about "spare the cut; spoil the child."Basically, I oppose FGM because I believe it to be child abuse andviolation of a child's basic human rights. This belief is grounded in theteachings and guidance of my mother's wit as she nurtured me throughout herlife. Therefore, am I not duty bound to join others seeking understandingof precisely what one would be up against in the quest to rid any littlegirl of the suffering and scourge of FGM? How much more would be enoughresearch to know child abuse when FGM speaks for itself?Perhaps to understand what some of the rancor and rage over banning FGM isabout; either now or by and by, I must continue to avail myself of therichness of our tribal diversity by engaging others in dialogue to gaininsights to the tribal cultural tradition context, in which proponents ofFGM see justification. So, I would excuse those who addressed my "learned"capacity - or the lack thereof (He who is perfect, let him cast the firststone. ... As if it were not possible to learn something new each day?) andask you to kindly provide me with actual insights to help me understand thejustification for FGM within the context of Liberian tribal culturaltraditions?Already, I have much information from many African authors and medical andlegal authorities. In the book, "The Hidden Face of Eve" by Nawal elSaadawi, she gives a personal account of circumcision in part 1, titled"the mutilated half." Rather than it being written from a western point ofview, it is written by a woman in the Arab world, with a first handaccount. As is also with novels of Flora Nwapa, Ngugi Wa Thiongo. A fewother notable publications include Jomo Kenyatta's "Facing Mt. Kenya,"Chapter 6: "Initiation of Boys and Girls." And by Thiam, Awa. "Speak Out,Black Sisters: Feminism and Oppression in Black Africa;" and Toubia,Nahid. "Female Genital Mutilation: A Call for Global Action.Any additional insights on FGM, from the prospective of Liberian tribalcultural traditions, would add more to my overall understanding. But,please hear me clearly: my understanding of FGM within the context ofLiberian cultural tradition would be simply to aid in the quest to saveanother child from such abuse. From a cultural tradition perspective, beinga so-called "maggin boy from Rock Town" who is too "quee" to be called"congua," I am thankful that neither my sisters nor my two daughter wereexposed to the trauma of FGM.Best regards,Archie B.mailto:tolob@comcast.net Sent by: To: mailto:OnLiberianMedium@yahoogroups.com OnLiberianMedium@ yaho cc: (bcc: Archie Bernard/ICTR/ UNO) ogroups.com Subject: Re: [OnLiberianMedium] Abortion Vs Female Circumcision 03/06/2008 12:18 PM Please respond to OnLiberianMedium In reading Archie Bernard's article on the subject "female circumcision" Iwas shocked to note that a learned lawyer from the Louise Arthur Grimesschool of Law would attempt to write on a subject that he knows little ornothing about. Consular Bernard, in your research on the subject inquestion, did you research to find out how many cultures around the worldpractice "female circumcision or female genital mutilation"? Is thepractice only confined to African societies? Are you telling us that youdid a 30 research paper based on half truths from your sisters' friends?Even though some of us frown on the practice solely out of health concerns,it is important to conduct a scientific research on the subject based onfacts before drawing any conclusions. Did you try to find why the MidEasterners practice "female Circumcision" , or did you think that it is onlyAfrican societies that perform the rite? Be careful what you writeconsular. Thanks to Tuon and Jake Doe for your analysis on the subject.Tolo Bonah Corfah------------ -- Original message ------------ --From: Archie Bernard <mailto:bernard1@un.org>Wow! Whatever it is that you are trying to say here, my response isthat:you are most welcome.Cheers!Archie B.Jacob Doe<mailto:josiboedoe@yahoo.com To: mailto:OnLiberianMedium@yahoogroups.com> cc: (bcc: Archie Bernard/ICTR/ UNO)Sent by: Subject: Re: [OnLiberianMedium] Abortion Vs FemaleCircumcisionOnLiberianMedium@ yahoogroups.com02/06/2008 10:00 PMPlease respond toOnLiberianMediumCompatriot Tuon/Compatriot BernardCompatriot Tuon, Kindly accept my hearty compliments forfundamentallydebunking Archie Bernard´s promotion of his slavemasters´ culturebeing themetaculture for makind. Accordingly, may I please interject a pointofcorrection here: that this son of a Liberian immigrant IS NOT"re-enforcingthe fact but rather, RE-ENFORCING THE MYTH that many Afr icantraditions areconsidered barbaric and should be eradicated without any objectivestudy"as contained in your lead sentence compatriot Tuon.As for you compatriot Bernard, your chronic limitations on thesubjectmatter would have been unknown had you, instead of basing yourfindings onyour sisters´ gossips, look up the shelves for the Anthropology ofLaw, andthen at your current age you would have known that while you may dowellbeing a "successful" transmission belt for your slavemasters´commercialinterests, you do not have the sophestication to serve as atransmissionbelt to relegate, insult, or destroy any feature of the culture ofMamaAfrica!By the way, your reasearch conclusion reached from your sister´sgossipsand this your so called thirty page brief; was it from a positivists,interpretivist, idealist, externalist, or an internalist standpoint?Whileyou are at that I like to warn you via the following indices andsignals:Compatriot. Bernard, instead of lackadaisically promoting the myththat anytradition or culture from Mama Africa that is not approved by yourslavemasters is bad, you should be ejaculating knowledge during theseintellectual intercourses that will help them (your slavemasters) indesisting from homosexuality within the officialdom of the Church!Thisculture of theirs is dangerous and sewagingly shameful mostespecially soon the pulpit, and its Bishopric! Mr. Bernard would this die out?Thanks exceedingly,Jake DoeNimely-Sie Tuon <mailto:tuonagain@yahoo.com> wrote:Mr. Bernard's below intervention regarding female circumcision, knownas "Female Genital Mutilation" by its opponents, has revealednothing new, but simply re-enforcing the fact that many Africantraditions are considered barbaric and should be eradicated withoutany objective study of the matter. W hat we have here, as Mr. Bernardpointed out, is that every action taken so far regarding femalecircumcision, like many other African tribal practices, is aimed ateradicating not improving on it, or find out what impact this andmany others have had on the population that are involved in thesepractices for the past centuries. There has been no indepth study ofthis matter to see its pros and cons. This practice has survived manycenturies, and there is no proof that children born from women whounderwent this procedure are different from those born to the womenwho didn't.Mr. Bernard, like many others, who have attempted to discussed this,usually exposed their own lack of direct knowledge of this procedure.Mr. Bernard, as a Liberian law maker who had attempted to ban thisprocedure relied only on the writings of those that are against this,eventhough, Mr. Bernard was in the position to have visited thecenters, or native schoo ls, where this procedure is conducted butchose not to, and continues to call for its outright ban.The Liberian society, like many other African societies, aresaturated with many western ideas that have negatively impacted thepeople, but all we hear are excuses to improve on ugly western ideasand practices, not calling for them to be banned.While the west is telling us to ban female circumcision, the westrefused to ban abortion, once a very crude procedure, but insteadthey are improving on making the abortion procedure safe. An outrightban on abortion has fallen on deaf ears in which actual human rightsviolation do occurred. Right now in the abortion procedure, themethod of killing an unborn child is being improve, so why the femalecircumcision procedure can not be improved on medically?The ongoing onslaught of our tribal practices by those callingthemselves government officials, with total disregard to our people'ssensitivity, are setting the stage for a cultural revolt acrossLiberia. These unwarranted attacks on Liberia's trbal institutionshave nothing to do with nation building, but rather to perpetuate thesubornation of African natives to the rest of the world. EveryAfrican, or Liberian tribal way of life must be given the opportunityto be improved on like we do with western ideas, and allow the peopleinvolved to make informed decision as whether they want continue themor not.Archie Bernard <mailto:bernard1@un.org> wrote:Good morning to All,In law school I learned that female circumcision is a violationof herbasic human rights. Before then, I would hear of the practicebeing spokenabout in hush tones - as if it were taboo. Often, I would hearmy eightsisters wispering about some of the horrors recounted by theirgirlfriendswho were victims of the practice in the name of cultural riteof passage.During the constitutional drafting exercise, I gained moreinsight into thecomplex and nettlesome nature of this practice during ratherheated debatesabout what constitutes "positive Liberian culture." Later on,in theSenate, an attempt by us "young guns" to introduce a billbanning thepractice in Liberia was blocked by the presiding officer, withwarningsthat we would risk being JR-ed were we to persist. Onehonorable gentlemaneven accused me of not being qualified to understand thecultural ortraditional significance of this practice, because "my fatherhad notribe;" being the son of an immigrant to Liberia. So, to ensuresupport onother issues, we gave up that battle.Shortly thereafter, in my African Law class at the LouiseArthur GrimesSchool of Law, I took it as the subject of the required 30-pagebrief on atopic of African Law. The insights gained from readings andinterviews onthis topic were an eye opener - to say the least. It remindedme of mystudies of trial by ordeal, slavery, cannibalism and apatheid.And howthose too found justifications in religious zealotry , culturaltraditionsand social dogma. But, the poignant impact of this practice wassummed upin one look at a picture showing the utter shock and hurt inthe eyes of alittle girl, from something so life changing (yet avoidable)having beendone to her body, without her consent. Worse still, the pictureshowedthis been done to her body at the urging of her family. Whatmere wordswould ever be sufficient to justify such suffering on herinnocence? Likeother, I too wonder what manner of man would wish suchsufferring upon hisdaughter in the name of cultural tradition?Given the emotive nature spured by any talk of banning thispractice, apublic debate would provide the chance for better c ulturalunderstandingsand perhaps, eventually, some concensus on how we as a peoplewould addressthis intractable cultural practice. Moreover, without publicdebate, thisissue has the potential risk of being highjacked by those whowould preachtribalism disguised as nationalism. Yet, regardless of all thetalking,cutting-ups and carrying-ons (ironically being done mostly bymen), clearlythis is one of those "when-chicken- is-white, it-is-white"issues. And whileit may linger long; die it must. This practice is a voilationof a littlegirl's inner child, with profound impact on her life.Best regards,Archie B.----- Message from Archie Bernard <mailto:bernard1@un.org> on Tue, 3 Jun 200807:03:39 +0000 -----To: mailto:OnLiberianMedium@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [OnLiberianMedium] Abortion Vs Female Circumcision (See attached file: pic01749.gif) (See attached file: pic17198.gif)
Monday, June 16, 2008
Abortion Vs Female Circumcision
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